Episode 63 - The Elder Daughter Effect with Aleta Wilson

In many families, the eldest daughter quietly carries an invisible role — helper, mediator, caregiver, and emotional support system. Over time, this responsibility can shape identity, relationships, and mental health.

Aleta is back to explore the “elder daughter phenomenon,” the pressure to be responsible and mature too early, and how these expectations can impact boundaries, burnout, and self-worth later in life.

We discuss parentification, cultural expectations, and how elder daughters can begin to release the pressure of being “the strong one.”

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Hi everyone, welcome back to outside the therapy room. Today we are joined by Alita. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:40

I'm good. I'm great. It's so nice that even if it's 10 a.m. that there's so much natural light coming in. I see it on both of us already.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

So you've been here before for season one. Um, but for folks who are just tuning in now in this season, can you absolutely yeah?

SPEAKER_00 0:57

So my name is Alita. I am a mental health therapist. My background is in social work. Before that, I was a birth duela. So a lot of my private practice right now is still very much connected to the perinatal period. So I work a lot with people trying to conceive in that kind of stage of adulthood, womanhood, where they're exploring what it might mean to become a parent, whether that's something that they're interested in moving into, and then as well, a lot of postpartum support and in the postpartum period of life. Um I also work a lot with women specifically, and I have my own kind of program and things that I'm running called Nice Girl, and it's it's all about understanding the different almost like archetypes that that women can experience themselves in. Um and I think one of those archetypes we're going to explore together today.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

Yeah. So for folks who haven't listened to Alita's episode in season one, we do dive a little bit into the nice girl. Um, and at that time you were talking a little bit about a program. Um, maybe there'll be time at the end for you to share any upcoming workshops or groups that you have um going on. But for this conversation, we are talking about eldest daughters. And I'm an I'm an eldest daughter. Are you?

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Um technically, this is where there's kind of nuance around the title of eldest daughter, because I'm actually the middle child with boys on either side, but I am the eldest daughter. So yes, I I there's definitely ways that I identify with it, um, as well as maybe not as much as some who are technically the oldest, oldest child as well, because that can have its own experiences being the the firstborn.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Yeah, yeah, that's definitely like, I mean, I'll sprinkle in a little bit of my experience throughout our conversation today. But I do think, yeah, the I guess definition of eldest daughter probably is a little bit more complicated because in your case, you're surrounded by boys kind of in the middle, but you still are the eldest daughter. Some of those um things we're gonna talk about today do still um can fall on your shoulders. But there's I've also heard it with like friends and also with one of my clients, um, maybe being like the second, but still again, a lot of these expectations, responsibilities, all of these things kind of being placed on them. And so there is, there is like, I guess, like a the definition of it, I guess, really. We're being kind of general in our conversation today around eldest daughter, um being the eldest daughter. Um, but yeah, the definition, I guess, could change depending on the family.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Yeah. Yeah, and maybe we can tease out some of that that nuance today as well, because yeah, like you said, you might actually be the youngest child, but have taken on that eldest daughter role. And um, I have some clients who find themselves in that dynamic and that even themselves are being like, I'm the youngest, yet I have somehow found myself in this role of being the oldest child. Or I know we're gonna move into like the parentified child in the family dynamic. So yeah, even um for some people when they hear eldest daughter, they're like, oh, that resonates so much. That is me. And other people they think that resonates, but I'm I'm technically not the oldest daughter, but I'm but I'm in that role in my family.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

Yeah, yeah, it can definitely change. I think, you know, we've already spoken about some of this. There can be like um unspoken expectations, responsibility, a sense of maturity that comes with being the eldest daughter and sometimes even being that emotional support person for parents and for the rest of the siblings. And so it can sometimes come at a cost. And I think we like maybe slightly talked about it in our last podcast um episode in season one. But a lot of these qualities end up impacting us as women as we continue on with our lives outside of the family dynamic. So that's gonna be our topic today. I'm really excited because I think there's been so much discussion about it in media, um, just kind of even in the therapy room. So yeah, I think this is a kind of a fun conversation for us to have.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

I agree.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Yeah. So what like I guess we've defined it a little bit, the definition of what an eldest daughter may be. But what is the eldest daughter phenomenon? Is it something that you see in your work with women?

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Yeah, it's definitely something I see honestly, I see inside and outside the therapy room. I see it amongst my female friends. I see it in my own family, like my the generational family that I have. I see it in my clients a lot. And I think what you and I have already touched on is something like the the concept of the the oldest daughter is more of an archetype in my perspective or an experience than necessarily a clinical diagnosis. So I think, and and I'd be curious to kind of hear your understanding of oldest daughter too, to just like add more nuance to to the definition. But what I really see is it is the the role, or I use the term like archetype or the role that really takes where the an individual in the family in this con in this context, we're talking about like a female in the family taking on the language that I use is like an adult adjacent role very early. And so what I mean by that is they end up taking on a very um sometimes there might be language of like they're very mature, they're very like emotionally mature. Uh, they take on like the helper, the caretaker, the responsible one, the one who holds a lot of or can hold a lot of like emotional um harmony responsibility for the family of making sure everyone is at peace. They can be the peacekeeper. Um and a lot of the times as well, we talk about it from the lens of oldest daughter, because it tends to be an individual in the family that ends up really enmeshed or connected with one or both parents where they take on this role of almost like a parent-adjacent role in a lot of instances.

SPEAKER_02 7:48

Yeah, I would agree. I like obviously it's not a clinical diagnosis. It is this role that can sometimes be put on the eldest daughter, or it becomes something that the eldest daughter just kind of absorbs and picks up. Yeah, because I have heard from um parents talking about their children being like, no one's telling, we're not pushing our eldest daughter to do all of these things. We are constantly having to remind her to still be a kid. She doesn't need to take care of her brother, like all of these things. So sometimes it just becomes something that I don't know, the the role is kind of placed on us by family, or we end up kind of just adapting to this role. Um, but I agree with a lot of what you said. It does become kind of, you know, that that parent of parentrification, but also that can, and we'll talk about this more as we go through the episode today, but I think it can also lead to triangulation um between parents and then the eldest daughter kind of coming in when there is any conflict or disagreement or a decision that may need to be made. In my experience as an immigrant coming to Canada, I was the translator and the one doing like some of the documentation and all of these things. And so I know it's different for everybody's experience based on what's kind of happening in their family dynamic that can cause kind of this role to ignite or to exist. Um, same with um, you know, families who maybe lose the mother and the eldest daughter ends up kind of picking up that role. So there's a lot of different ways that a woman can kind of feel like they are now the eldest daughter or the eldest daughter kind of sin, what are we calling it, syndrome experiences, whatever, um, but ends up taking on some of those qualities and it can be really impactful in their childhood and then carry on with them into their adulthood as well.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Yeah, yeah. You know, thinking about I love the way that you just language that is like also families, especially when we're very young, children have dependency on their family dynamic and on their caretakers. And it's just very much ingrained in our attachment, in our biology, in our physiology. And so what I hear you naming too is what I see so often with the eldest daughters, is they end up filling gaps for where there are gaps in their family system. And so what I'm hearing for you is there was maybe gaps in terms of where you were able to step in in that immigration process. Um, and and so the role that the eldest daughter ends up taking isn't universal, but it but it's really this idea of filling this gap or taking on this responsibility that is like an adult adjacent or parent adjacent or just um adult in general, like a more mature role. And you know, for some folks, if they have parents who struggled with, let's say, like depression and had a really hard time getting out of bed and had a really hard time um kind of basic household maintenance. It might be the youngest daughter who was making their siblings lunch, was was grocery shopping, was maintaining the house, was paying bills at a very young age, like all of those things. Or um, you know, if there was violence or stress in the household, the oldest daughter might be the one that really went into more of that peacekeeper and keeping the siblings out of the room, really monitoring the you kind of talked about the triangulation, monitoring the energy or the emotion behind behind the scenes that's going on with the parents. And I guess like the other part that you mentioned too, that I think is really important is recognizing that the eldest daughter role isn't always specifically either directly or indirectly assigned to the child. Sometimes, like the example that you use, um, which I really relate to myself, actually, where I was never either directly or indirectly or even encouraged to be in the oldest daughter role, but I often found myself taking that on because I also had um such a uh organic pull to caretaking, to caretaking my brothers, to um yeah, taking on a little bit more of that household responsibility, almost as like positively modeling those those maternal traits that my mom had. Like I I can remember as a kid really um mirroring her and doing things like that because I I really looked up to her, but it wasn't from a distressed place within myself that I needed to do that, but I just was so so drawn to her role as a mother, especially at that really young age where there was so much caretaking happening.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

Yeah, I always tell clients like sometimes the roles that we are put in, we are assigned, right? Like again, if there's a family going through separation, the mom may tell the oldest daughter, like, make sure you take care of your younger siblings when you're at dad's house, or you know, you have to make sure that you set the alarm because your dad's not gonna remember to you, like all of these responsibilities are placed on the eldest daughter. And so that role is being assigned. And in some cases, like the one you mentioned, we place ourselves in these roles. Um and yeah, it can be, I think, really connected to caretaking, especially when it's something that is modeled to us to, you know, care for one another and all of that can be very easy for us to then just take on some of that role. Um, and it doesn't come from like ill intent or anything like that. It's just we really look up to this person and we want to mirror some of the behaviors that they do. Um, so yeah, it's interesting how kind of the eldest daughter experience can sometimes be something that is um something that we choose or something that we don't really have a choice over. Um, yeah, we talked a little bit about this already, but what are some common expectations that are placed on eldest daughters when they're growing up?

SPEAKER_00 14:02

That's a great question. Um yeah, I think kind of to your point, I I think it does depend on a lot of things, whether it be culturally, whatever whatever family dynamics are happening, if there's separation happening. Um but I think some of the really common ones are um yeah, it really does depend on the family dynamic, the parental figures, the gaps the daughter ends up filling. And so I'll maybe share some that I notice. And um, I just am so always like considerate of over-generalizing things or making things very specific. And I think that that's why therapy can be so helpful for people even experiencing things like oldest daughter, where it's not, oh well, these are kind of told what happen what would happen or what it would look like, or kind of giving it too specific of a definition. And really, I think for a lot of people it's exploring for themselves what their experience with oldest daughter was and how that shaped and impacted them. But a lot of the ones that I see, um, there's like very what I would consider like explicit stuff, like the ones that you talked about, like watch your watch your siblings set an example, help flirt for dinner, um, make sure your brother doesn't get into that. Or if um what I see quite often is like if siblings are playing, the the oldest also, instead of being able to be in free play with the other siblings, also becomes kind of responsible for parenting the children, even if it's like conflict resolution or um well, what happened here? And they go to the oldest daughter to really like mediate that situation, or even um, I'm gonna use word like discipline or like parent those moments. Um, so it can be really specific things like that. It can also be what I would call maybe more like unspoken things like be attuned, be capable, don't need too much help, keep the peace. Um ones that I see also is be able to be emotionally available for parents. So sometimes there's situations where the eldest daughter ends up becoming the emotional support for one or both parents, or the the middle child between conflict of the the eldest daughter is relaying information between the parents, or the eldest daughter is on the receiving end of um mom or dad or parent like emotionally processing or venting about their own life, like using them as a therapist, um, or using them as a um honestly like a pawn within the family that they take on this role.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Yeah. Yeah, I agree with all of the ones you said. And it's the kind of um urgency that the child can feel to be the one to kind of stand up or support or caretake or discipline. Um, it really does, again, for a variety of reasons that we just noted, it does feel like the sense of urgency to have to do that. Um, I think something too um is that can be more explicit, as you said, is also the expectation of taking care of the other parent. So especially, you know, if if somebody has to leave for work or if somebody's away on a trip, like make sure, make sure that, you know, your parent does this, doesn't miss the appointment, doesn't do all of the and a lot of adult things that we don't all like kiddos don't always have control over. I've heard from friends and also some clients about feeling responsible to getting their siblings or themselves to an activity at a certain time, but they didn't drive. They didn't like know how to get there. And so they're rushing their parent, but feeling this immense anxiety because parent isn't um feeling the urgency to get them there on time. And then sometimes being the ones to get in trouble. They're the ones that end up getting in trouble for showing up late. And so there is a lot of these, you know, feelings and emotions that can come up when we're experiencing some of those um expectations. Yeah. Yeah. You touched on parentification. What is that for folks that maybe don't know what that term is?

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Mm-hmm. Yeah, parentification is um a little bit, maybe I'll probably use similar language to what I've used already, but it's when a child takes on roles or responsibility that that belong developmentally to adults or particularly parents or parent figures in those moments. Um there's I see parentification as what's called like instrumental parentification, which is like cooking meals, caring for younger younger siblings, like managing household logistics, things like that, which are kind of the actual like it's called instrumental, but it's like the material physical things. And then there's the emotional parent parentification, which is um what we've talked about, like examples would be um becoming the parent's confidant of like that that almost like therapist, the emotional support, the emotional regulator often of the the the oldest daughter trying to regulate the mood of a parent if there's a parent that has um that struggles with their own mood regulation. Um, it can be the old the parentification is that almost um adult adjacent role that the child ends up going into, which is uh, you know, the child that's maybe the mom is processing her marriage frustrations with, or um, is is taking on the developmental responsibility of more of that adult or specifically parent figure. So it's parentified, it's like I'm a kid, but now I've been parentified into this parent figure or this parent adjacent figure that that is really like you touched on, like developmentally so advanced for this for this child. Um but some children, and and maybe we'll kind of speak to like the the kids that end up in these parentified roles aren't necessarily specifically the oldest child. Often they are because of the birth order. It's okay, now you're the oldest. Now I'm parentifying you consciously or unconsciously as a parent, I'm parentifying you more into this parent role because I I need that support or I want that support. Yeah. So I think you know, there are some children also who are naturally very empathetic, who are very emotionally attuned, who are sensitive, who are good listeners. Like a lot of children who I see in kids that end up falling into this parentified role can also be the one that is looking for connection, looking for a sense of belonging, looking for security, looking for love within their family. And they end up using some of those abilities to step into that parentified role to do that of well, I get this quality time with mom if I sit here and she vents about dad, even though it feels really uncomfy for me to be in that place, or afterwards I go to bed and I'm anxious or stressed about it. But in that moment, it was just mom and she said that she's so grateful that I listen so well, and dad never listens like I do. And um, you know, so some of those qualities too, it might be that the the child who maybe is more emotionally attuned or sensitive, or um, sometimes it's even the child who's a little bit more a type, like when you talk about the who's the one. keeping track of the timing, there can be some of those qualities that I think we all will innately have, whether it's you know we're a little bit more a type and end up falling into that oldest daughter role of just managing the household because uh you have maybe a more organic draw to manage like that and your parents your parents aren't in that same um you know schedule that that you end up taking on. So so sometimes too it's it's the I call it like the gifts that we can sometimes have that end up getting um overused or misused with within our family systems. Like that empathy that you have that might get misused by by that really that gift getting turned into managing the emotional state of your whole family or the the gift or the tendency that you have to um really like order and structure and that could be seen as maybe a personality trait ends up being like misused to then manage and order the whole family or the specific parent that really struggles with time management or a sibling that really struggles with time management.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Yeah and I think you touched on something important too and it's that praise like sometimes the eldest daughter can get praised for these things like oh you're always keeping us on track or think you you're a better listener than your father. And even though um like it might feel icky as you said to kind of be that confident for a parent at the same time it can feel so good to be getting this praise from that parent. And some of our needs being met as you pointed out as well like you know me and mom don't really have this one-on-one quality time but when she talks to me about that or about her job or about this conflict we had at whatever like this is our quality time. And so kind of putting up with the discomfort because a need is still being met or that praise is kind of coming and continuing to make us feel good. And I know I can speak for myself when when we I came we came to Canada when I was five, I picked up English a lot faster than my parents did um with school and everything. And so when they would ask me um like oh can you translate this for us? Can you you know let the ask the grocery person about like this discount that we have whatever it is I felt special because I was able to kind of be this like vocal person in in my family dynamic. And so there can be a like that praise or this you know feeling really special or responsible or mature that can kind of come up that can then again mix around with some of the um expectations or the parentification that can happen in family dynamics as well.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think to what you're speaking on there an exploration that I always find really important is exploring kind of the extent of harm of certain things. And sometimes I see especially online there can be these things oh if you're like the oldest daughter oh that's like you have trauma then and you have um oh yeah you know there there's like there was abuse that's abusive things like that and and I think everything is a spectrum and what I would say is being in the oldest daughter role will have an impact on you, it will have an impact on your identity. It will have an impact on maybe some of the stages of development that you might have missed or not get to spend so much time in because you were in this parent role but it doesn't always necessarily mean harm and it doesn't all necessarily mean that there was a abuse or trauma there. And there but it and sometimes there is and and so I think sometimes these terms is like oh I'm the eldest daughter I relate to that oh was my childhood like were my parents abusing me was that abusive or was there trauma there? And so um again I think some of these things like really exploring them with a a helping professional and a therapist specifically can be so so supportive to really understand your your own experience with maybe a a title or a label that you that you resonate with because um yeah I think being it there's an there's extremes and there's extents to everything. And for some people it might be being in the eldest daughter role gave me a lot of confidence and and like really helped me um move through life in a way that I feel really proud of now because I've I've achieved a lot or because I've I learned how to do these things because I I either took these opportunities or were given or maybe even encouraged or forced into as a child but it didn't necessarily I don't register that as being harmful or or um negative to my upbringing or experience. But I think it is worth looking into as well how the impact that it does have because there often are times where there is an impact to it whether whether it is having a negative consequence on your life at the time it not universally so it and I think it also does depend on um kind of where you fall in the spectrum and how that was managed within your own home.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

Yeah and again you bring up a really great point about social media being very generalized and when when you know influencers sometimes therapists are kind of making these really like broad general statements. I know for myself I've read some things where it's like if you're if you were mature as a child then that means that there was some trauma or harm and I have a very mature older kiddo um and he's very mature for his age but he was born that way like he kind of was born as like this little old man. And so yeah there's a lot of this generalizing that can sometimes then have us review our childhood in a way that may not be actually how we felt during it. But there is a spectrum sometimes no trauma, no abuse and then other times those things do happen in a family dynamic which impacted the eldest daughter experience will kind of come up. I think regardless though whether there's been like healthy or unhealthy dynamics happening within a family our mental health can be impacted as the eldest daughter I think a lot of the things that we mentioned brings up a lot of anxiety for a kiddo like again rushing the or like um really um reminding the parent about an appointment coming up or needing to get there on time, any kind of anxiety about mood regulation as you mentioned in the household a lot of these things can be something that an eldest daughter child might kind of be sitting with what are some other mental health patterns that you see in some individuals who see themselves as eldest daughters yeah I think you know what we know currently about childhood development um there's pretty significant milestones that are really important for kids to move through in their overall mental health but more importantly the way that I see it is like their their sense of individuation and their sense of identity and um you know their their emotional regulation things like that.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

And so through a developmental lens um what we're talking about the way that I see it is a child who typically again depending on the spectrum um didn't have the conditions they needed to develop a full sense of self because they were in that adult or parentified role. They and and even if it was you know some kids they were in that constantly and they never had any moments to be a kid. Other kids have a lot of moments to be kids but when certain situations come up they end up in that adult role and so again that spectrum but really it's talking about the impact of not having some or all of those conditions to develop that full sense of self. And so children need time they need freedom they need safety to explore who they are to have preferences to make mistakes to be um just to like be kids right and and sometimes if there is that that daughter who um when her childhood was let's say like organized around a role I'll call it like if your childhood was organized around the role of being the caretaker the peacekeeper the capable one the you know the manager of the household duties whatever it might be that role starts to become their identity especially at those young age when that sense of identity is really developing. And so it it fills the space where um like that more kind of I would almost say like when that sense of self is being created and explored sometimes what it can feel like is you're just like given an identity you're given a role or that individuation doesn't happen. So there's there's a term that I love is like where do I end and you begin and it's that idea of there's an individuation between I am me and I am my own sense of self and you are you and everyone is themselves. And often what I see with parentification and that oldest daughter is that there's a lot of like enmeshment or codependency. And so there's not a clear gauge of individuation. It's like I am this role within my household or I am um because of that parentification like overly um enmeshed with those caretakers where I'm I don't have that that freedom or that independence or that individuation to be a child and to find myself and to have space to explore that and and have those younger years where that can um there can be space for that for that to be like messy like even it's just like make mistakes be a kid and so in in adulthood what I see is like often there's that like chronic over responsibility or that difficulty knowing and I see this so much in the nice girls that I work with of just like not really knowing what do I want what do I like what um what are my hobbies like um that a lot of that perfectionism of needing to be a certain way or needing um yeah like a really high expectations and pressure on self. And then um yeah there there can often be a lot of what I see is like anxiety in in relationships really difficulty receiving is is a big thing that I see of like really struggling to step out of that that parentified role that you were in at a young age because it has been ingrained on such an identity level.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

Yeah I see that too like the difficulty with um receiving sometimes the identity piece as you pointed out trying to figure out who they are what are my hobbies especially in adulthood there can also be a struggle with boundaries um which was a little bit that we talked about in the New Girl episode um and guilt if they do have to set boundaries or if they aren't able to do this. And so you know something that I've had to unlearn is I, you know, as the eldest daughter I can't be everyone's you know rescuer. And so kind of having to sit uncomfortably through setting those boundaries and kind of allowing my family to know that that's not my role anymore. I'm stepping out of it that did come with a lot of guilt but also a lot of understanding but for some other folks that um even the thought of setting a boundary in that way feels so um I don't know like the guilt but also like impossible like what do you mean I need to set boundaries like you know meanwhile they're feeling so overwhelmed getting you know um putting themselves um you know with the responsibilities with work responsibilities with family and the any additional responsibilities that they feel this force of needing to take on um and so yeah a lot of the things that you mentioned anxiety overwhelm um and then just that struggle with boundaries and guilt. I know I like touched on it a little bit but why do you think that's so challenging for eldest daughters to set some of those boundaries?

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Oh yeah that's a great question. There's so many directions I feel like we could take this in because I think that there's a lot that goes into this but something that jumps out at me first is the nervous system because our our nervous system has such an influence on how we perceive and experience reality and what feels safe, what feels unsafe and what our you know quite common term in therapy is like window of tolerance like what our window of tolerance is or how much capacity or tolerance we have for certain things. And so for many oldest daughters the absence of boundaries was where they often source their safety from at that time or where they source their love and acceptance and belonging from was not having boundaries was not individuating was being quite enmeshed or codependent with their in their relationships. It could be grandparents it could be like siblings and so that is what started to feel safe even if it came at a cost even if there was um you know whatever that cost might be and so as you get older even if you start to develop like your prefrontal cortex your brain starts to develop you start to like actually really mature and realize you might have the language of oh I'm not responsible for that person's emotions. Oh I don't I don't need to drop everything to go do that. Even if you can logically and rationally understand that the body has not yet had enough experiences likely for that to feel safe or for that to feel right or okay. And so that's where a lot of guilt often comes from because guilt the way that I see it is this idea of I've I've I've done something wrong. Shame is I am wrong guilt is I've done something wrong. And so the guilt comes in because it's like this is wrong. I've done something wrong and and it's the it's the challenging place for most people of knowing better but not doing better. And it's because the mind knows better but the the body is still living in those old attachment patterns that old nervous system patterning um often there's a lot of like the fawn with the nervous system which is the people pleasing the appeasing the keeping the peace the the media moderating everything. And so what's so important in this process is is doing the the the insight of what role did I play and how did that shape me and what thoughts or beliefs or stories did that create in terms of who I am as a person what my role is but also who they are right because often what can come with that is they need me. They can't do this on their own or um they're not safe or okay to be in their own emotions. So I need to be in their emotions with them. And so I think that understanding and insight kind of that that cognitive realm is so important. But if if those boundaries are still feeling hard how is my nervous system experiencing this and your nervous system and and maybe from an attachment lens is needing more support in order to build more more like coping mechanisms and and I call it like micro dosing experiences that help your body start to feel okay this is safe and I know how to handle this in a different way than how I have because how we do something we'll end up just doing that over and over again because it's it's what we feel familiar with. Even if that's like oh I got discomfort discomfort discomfort okay there goes the boundary because it's easier it feels easy easier and safer in the system to to not maintain or hold that boundary if the discomfort um you know escalates to a certain point.

SPEAKER_02 39:19

Everything that you said I think it is like a nervous system and I think we also get used to the familiar and so even if we feel that ball at the pit of our stomach or we feel that anxiety all throughout our body that is more familiar and therefore more uncomfortable than the increase of that anxiety when we are setting boundaries and so a lot of the time and you brought up people pleasing like it can be so challenging to set some of those boundaries because our body is just feeling this immense discomfort while our brain is like yay keep going like it's okay. Then that's when like the miscommunication or mismatch can kind of happen between our mind and our body.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

Yeah I would say to that too something that I really support my clients with is like when I talked before about sometimes there's those developmental stages that are missed at this those young ages. Sometimes we have to actually explore that and go back to like what and sometimes it's like really practical tangible skills. I actually never use the language to express how I feel or say no to something because I just never did so now I'm 33 and like actually don't even know how to have those that conversation or have never used that language before. So sometimes it's also um you know if it is a boundary it's like I don't even I don't even know what I would say. Like I don't even know and what if she says this then then what would I would say and it it can kind of become that really uh overwhelming and like scary place to go of this is so far outside my comfort zone because I'm so used to just saying yes or doing the thing or stepping into that that oldest daughter role. And so I think also it the a question that can be really helpful is what might I need in order to support myself to move into this more? What might I need where where am I feeling maybe that I'm I'm not ready or where like I I do a lot of parts work in my sessions like what part of me or or where am I still feeling that even though I'm knowing this boundary is helpful for me, I'm not able I'm I'm really struggling to move into it or don't feel like I can and sometimes it's it's learning certain skills or communic you know communication um use the word like strategies or communication techniques of like yeah what does it actually look like to say this in a way that is still respectful that is that is still maintaining the relationship because some of the fear is if I say no or don't do this, I'm gonna lose that person. And that in the body feels really big and you don't we don't always necessarily know that could feel true, right? It could feel true because I don't know. I've never done that.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

And so I think too learning okay there there might be some some tools or some strategies some communication um yeah I guess like communication strategies that can be really helpful in those moments too to bridge the gap yeah and like you said kind of micro so trying to start small kind of work your way up um so starting I always talk to clients like start small if the coffee shop gets your order wrong then like don't just take the drink and be like it's okay come like go back and communicate hey this isn't actually the drink that I ordered and like those are like little small ways that you can start kind of um like um like kind of like advocating for yourself but also not just putting up with what's actually happening in small ways with a stranger that might feel a little bit safer um than doing it with like a family member.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Yeah or even starting with asking the question what might I have wanted to say in that moment yeah and it's like you can even practice internally because it might feel fumbly even and it might feel too much of a step to even do that. If if that feels too much of a step to even do it with the coffee like the coffee how might I even say that it's like I actually don't even know I don't know how I would say that. And so sometimes even practicing those things internally of because I think part of it is building confidence in your ability to um like you use the word like advocate for yourself or or speak up for yourself. And so sometimes it's even it's even practicing internally or giving yourself that permission of oh it's okay I feel this way. Because I think too a big big thing that I see with the eldest daughters is I shouldn't feel this way. I shouldn't I shouldn't have this boundary I shouldn't have this need I shouldn't want to say not I should just do it. And it's like okay well what if what if it was okay? What if that was okay that that felt too much how does even just you acknowledging that for yourself feel in your body and there might be a lot of resistance to that. I'm not allowed to not be okay with that I have to do that. There's there can be so much resistance to um stepping out of some of those parentified or oldest daughter roles. And so sometimes it really is like starting small and even just like stepping out of that role internally with yourself of okay, I might not be able to actualize that in my like material real world, but but can I start to even reclaim that space within myself and recognize that for myself? And then I agree, like I absolutely say, like, do not go, not not that I actually those, but like I really encourage not starting with the relationship where there is that dynamic most ingrained because that is going to feel really challenging. And but it but it could be starting in, I say like start with your safe people. If you have safe people in your life, like start with those people, start with the people that you feel safest with, that you feel closest with, and that you feel like the relationship has resiliency for you to explore that because a lot of the times um women and uh maybe something will explore like how eldest daughter, what their adult relationships end up looking like, can often be relationships that don't have a lot of resiliency because you've you've overfunctioned in that relationship for so long. And so there can sometimes be that almost like confirmation bias of, oh, I stopped doing this thing and that person didn't want to be my friend anymore or disappeared. And that actually speaks more to that person in the relationship than it does to you. But but that's where it's like having that belief in my yourself of I know that it's okay for me to need this or want this or not be able to do this. And I'm going to develop the skills to communicate and articulate myself in a way that I feel good enough about or can start to feel proud of myself for eventually. And there might be some relationships that do shift because of that, and not using that as reinforcement of these boundaries are wrong, because that can happen so often if if it's if if we move into that in certain relationships that again like don't have the capacity or the resiliency or the um reciprocity in the relationship.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Yeah, we've been going down like this one path of boundaries being really difficult because we're kind of in people pleasing. And I think at the same time, um, and within the same person, it can also become really difficult to ask for help. And so sometimes, you know, the you know, the original question was like, how does mental health kind of impact um eldest daughters as they go into adulthood? And I think a lot of the time it's this hyper independence, or it can be, um, where it's really difficult to ask for help, which can then lead to burnout because they're doing things for themselves and also doing so much for other people. Um, and I think a quality I also see a lot, and and we've talked about it before with people pleasing is also perfectionism and how that can kind of show up in adulthood as well. And I think some some of these things also come down to a sense of control, kind of controlling their space, their comfort, which makes complete sense because control is kind of what we feel safety as. Um, but what what are kind of some of your perspectives in terms of like the hyperindependence um and perfectionism that can sometimes come with eldest daughters?

SPEAKER_00 47:35

Yeah, yeah. It's um, I think it's such a common one, the the hyperindependence. Um and you know, that that can often be a protective mechanism that we have of if I can do everything on my own, I don't have to rely on anyone. And there can sometimes be that like there can be some attachments up there of the like what are you trying to protect yourself from by not needing people? And it can often be, you know, I don't want to be disappointed, I don't want to feel too much, I don't want to feel like a burden, I don't want um there could there can be so many things that we're protecting ourselves from be by becoming hyper-independent. Um, and sometimes it's we never learn. We never learned what it feels like to just let someone in. We never learned what it was like to be on the receiving end, and um that's something that maybe from again from a nervous system doesn't feel safe in our bodies to allow ourselves to let someone in that way. It can be a way that we are like guarded or protecting ourselves. So so the perfectionism, I think, also plays into that hyper-independence. If I can, if I can do everything right, not need anyone, that is going to be where I feel loved, safe, good. And it that can often be rewarding during certain stages of our lives. Oh, this you know, they do their homework on their own, they don't need me, they do really well in school. It's it's like that that almost like golden child. We can sometimes see in the eldest daughter, too, of um that perfectionism peace, but but there it's armor, it's armor that we wear to in attempts, like often in attempts to maintain our sense of belonging, worth, um, sense of sense of self, even in relationships, in in our lives. And it can be really influenced by culture, society, things like that, like we see shows or um movies as kids, or just even what we get praised for, right? The the the positive reward system, what we get praised for, we do more and more and more. And if you're the oldest daughter and and you're getting praised for, um, you know, your parents says something in front of their other parent friends of like, oh yeah, this is my this is my oldest, like she's she's whatever it might be, that praise we were designed to to reinforce what we're getting praise for, that positive reward system. And so I think you know, oftentimes it can be that that process of feeling safer on our own, even if that creates such a a loneliness or an emptiness or an exhaustion, like that burnout. And it it's it's a process to be able to start to let people in and still feel safe while doing that and still feel like allow yourself to have some of that deeper connection because often the hyperindependence, the perfectionism, it it doesn't allow for much like actual deep attachment and connection because there's such a self-preservation that's happening.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

Yeah, yeah. And and I hear that a lot in couples work too, when there's an eldest daughter of trying to help my partner here, they're not letting me, it's really hard to reach them, like all of those things. But I think a lot of what you pointed out speaks to that. And there are great reflection questions that you mentioned about really trying to identify why that might be you brought up culture. Um, and I'm curious, like, how do you think culture experiences impact um elder daughters differently? Maybe I know I mentioned like my experience as an immigrant, kind of coming here. Um, and because English was was easier for me to kind of pick up at the time, um, it was maybe maybe not an expectation, but a role that was kind of placed on me to be the translator, kind of, you know, do all of those those things. Um, but what are some other cultural expectations you might see?

SPEAKER_00 51:50

Yeah, that's a great question. Um I think for me, I work predominantly, if not almost exclusively, with white women. And so um white women who are like several generation Canadians. So that really plays into, I guess, my lens. And so um I can speak to that probably with more experience than on a broad cultural term. And I think what I see in the women that I work with is a lot of people influenced by religion and Christianity, maybe even not this specific um, you know, this specific generation, but um, especially the the generations before a lot of like Christianity and um that's Catholic, and that I think can be almost like a cultural influence, like that that religion culture on women specifically, and and a lot of those things of what it means to be a woman, or what it means to be like what I call the nice girl, but like a good girl, or what it means to um what what certain qualities or attributes are praised or highlighted or celebrated. And those are often the qualities of you know, being quiet, not speaking to being spoken to unless you're spoken to, um being kind of that um that mother figure, like as a woman, what that means to like the the trajectory of time of oh, you're a girl, but like you get the doll clothes, you get the you get the dolls, you get like people ask you like are about being a mom one day. There's a lot of you know, caretaking, housework, things like that. And so I think that that plays a big part into I think even more like the gender roles that happen in a household and um the emotional expectation that gets put on girls specifically to to kind of fill those roles and those adult responsibilities in their home.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

Yeah, I think um I work with kind of you know a mix of of women, some who are immigrants as well. And I think even just like in my family um and just around friends, I do see that there are some cultural and religious expectations to the girls and women in a family dynamic. And so, like you put pointed out, like gender roles, um the women are the ones that are cooking and you know, cleaning a lot of household things, but there is also the the caretaking, as you mentioned. Um, and again, when we're talking about um supporting parents as they grow into older adults, there is, or there can also be a religious or cultural expectation on who's the one that's going to be taking the caretaker role for the parent as they age. Um and so it it I think culture and religion can have a very strong impact on the eldest daughter and those expectations that are then placed on them. Um but I again it's probably very different for a lot of folks, depending on the family dynamic, their culture, is it a mixed family, blended family? Like all of these things are so individual to that family and that person that's experiencing them. But I I do, I think we've both recognized that there are there are influences from culture and religion that kind of comes and impacts the eldest daughter.

SPEAKER_00 55:42

Yeah, even in terms of um, you know, like going to school or grades or things like that, there's can sometimes some cultures be the pressure of you need to get a really good job so that then you can financially support the family. Or um, you know, thing things like that, even. But I think cultural um it's so interesting, I think, to explore that because um it's so it's so unique, right? And I think that that's why too, even women specifically understanding like where they came from and what were some of their even if it's like within the family, like what was your family culture like and how did that play into your your sense of self in the world? And sometimes it's culture from like a much larger sense, sometimes it's culture from um what town you were in and what that means, or what like how much did your family get together with extended family? Like, was that the culture that that you were in? And so I think also looking at what how it gets framed for you and and the language often that's used to instill some of those oldest daughter traits. Is it is was it instilled through more like religious language? Was it instilled through cultural or like nationality? Or um, you know, I think of some friends who come from like big Italian families, and there's there's that like that that could even be seen as like it's it's the culture of that of oh, we're together, we ex there's just the expectation that everyone helps everyone, and you know, you do anything for family, and if family needs you, like um, you know, blood is thicker than water, like those types of sayings too. So I think too, it's it's more so the process of that, you know, that that inquiry within yourself is like what what was the culture that I grew up in and what was kind of the larger culture that I grew up in? But then there can be some of these like smaller cultures that that you that can have a really significant influence as well.

SPEAKER_02 57:50

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think like a reflection of like what kind of messages did I receive, either directly or in or indirectly in my family dynamic or within those large or small cultures, um, can also be good to kind of just reflect on. I mean, you touched on this a little bit, but why do you think daughters are often given more emotional or caregiver roles than sons? And I know this could be a whole episode all on its own, but what's your perspective?

SPEAKER_00 58:17

Yeah, I think, yeah, it's so true. Um, there's probably a whole episode that can go into this, but um one thing that I see, and and this is me just like extracting little pieces from clients that I have, experiences that I've witnessed. Um what I what I notice often, and this is a very specific dynamic that I'm going to speak to, is the eldest daughter that's very much in that role with their mom, I'll say. And so something that I see is like that mother-daughter dynamic specifically that plays out in the oldest daughter, and that's specific, I think, to the daughter taking on more of the emotional responsibility, is when there are moms who didn't have their own emotional needs met, um, and potentially aren't having their emotional needs met even in their own marriage or relationship, um, possibly oldest daughters in themselves. So if there's a mom who's an oldest daughter and then has a daughter, it's that's often like a very interesting dynamic. Um, those moms can unconsciously turn to their daughters for the attunement and for that emotional space that they've always wanted. And sometimes I think I can see that as the again, some of the narrative and culture of like, I always wanted a daughter, I always wanted that like mini me. I always wanted that like best friend and a daughter. And and some of those preconceived notions that we put on that child, even before they're born or once they're born, of like, oh, this is gonna be my daughter, we're gonna do all these things together, like, you know, we're gonna have all these girl chats, all of that. It can it can sometimes be, yeah, the the the fantasy that we have or that parents have about what that child will be to them. Excuse me, and then that ends up creating these adult adjacent relationships where unconsciously that that child is now filling a role for you as a parent that you're putting on that child. Um, and I see that more specifically with girls, I think, because of that idea of like, oh, this is my daughter, and um you know, there there are whether this is backed by science fully, but there there is a lot of I would just say maybe like patterns of women and and daughters, not exclusively, but having more emotional attunement and emotional capacity. And women specifically, um, new research coming out that says like women specifically, um, their their dominant hormone is oxytocin for their nervous system, and men, their dominant ox uh hormone is dopamine. And so women, that that the way that women, and you see that in the way women connect and talk and have a lot of that emotional closeness, that's the oxytocin. And that is so important for women's nervous system, where men you might see the them be more oriented towards like accomplishment, succeeding things, completing tasks, things like that. And I'm not saying that that's universal, but that it's it's um, you know, a lot of people I think can see those, those uh the way that that might like naturally orient towards that. And so I think some of those qualities, the the the oxytocin that girls or women are looking for and that connection in um that emotional intelligence, things like that, that there's that there's probably a unconscious pairing that happens with that. And not always the case, because um, you know, my little brother is was incredibly emotionally attuned and sensitive as a kid. And um, yeah, that's that's not to say that's always the case, but it might be honestly the the younger, the the boy in the family if they exhibit those qualities that ends up falling into that like oldest daughter kind of role. So I I think I see most, and that's why sometimes it's not even the oldest daughter, but often it can be the the child that I use the word like like that naturally has some of those gifts and inclinations that end up falling into that role. And it it tends to be like um not exclusively, but it tends to be a female in the family. Um I think too, the oldest daughter ends up taking on that role because again, depending on how it fits within the the family, um the family timeline is sometimes you have a kid and it's it's your first one is new, like it's so new and you're young and you're figuring it out, and then there can sometimes be that feeling of like we're growing up together, right? Like I'm learning to be a parent with you, and there can sometimes be this attachment or this bond that's like, no, we're in this together, and there's an over-identification with that that child being part of that parenting journey with you, and then so they end up as a almost like an adjacent parent once they're old enough because now there's these other siblings, and it's like, okay, we've gone through this together, you and me. Now there's more, now I'm having another child, and I'm I'm either consciously or unconsciously relying on you now to to continue to support me through that because I've I've identified with you as being um like such a part of that parent's own identity and parenthood.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:56

Yeah, yeah. I agree with everything that you said. I think it definitely can align. Like I was even reflecting on like my relationship with my mom growing up. I have twin brothers, and so growing up, I was the little helper. There was a lot of connection that me and my mom had because my dad would be working, and so we were like, you know, little beings together, kind of trying to keep the my twin brothers supported and fed and all of those things. And so, yeah, definitely. I also think just societal expectations of w women are seen more as like the emotional ones, the ones that can be caregivers, whereas men are seeing more of the providers. And so I do think that some of those societal norms or gender roles expectations can sometimes be placed on kids even at a very young age. Um, yeah. But I think for a lot of eldest daughters, like this role can be, as we talked about, like really integrated into like their family system as a whole. But we touched on it a little bit here and there, but how can someone begin to step out of that caretaker role if they're noticing that maybe now it's not serving them or you know it's a change that they're kind of wanting to create in their system?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:10

Yeah, yeah. I think um one just the step of naming that for yourself, right? And and starting to build that relationship with yourself where you're stepping out of that a little bit, or feel the pull to shift those relationships and those dynamics. And sometimes there can often feel this feeling of, okay, as soon as I figure something out, I need to act on it right away. And that can be the urgency or the hyperindependence of okay, now, and then that can create overwhelm of like, oh my gosh, all of these relationships, everything needs to change. Like, I want to throw my life upside down and just rearrange all the pieces. And so I would say, like, first and foremost, notice if there's urgency as you start that process, because there's likely many, many, many. Many, many years of buildup to that point. And sometimes it can feel like a breaking point. And sometimes it can feel more like an awakening, I guess, or like a softening. And sometimes it's it's not. Sometimes it's more of a breaking point than a softening to that role that you were in that you want to shift out of. But I would say allow yourself to meet yourself in that. And it's okay if that if it needs to look quick because something's happened, that's a different story. And I would definitely encourage like get support through that process because it is a big shift to make in your life. Like relationships are such a foundation of our sense of self, our nervous system, our attachment, all of that, our identity. And so these are big things that you're asking yourself to do and that you're even considering exploring and part of that hyper-independence and that perfectionism of I should just be able to do these things and figure it out. And once I know I want to change things, I should be able to just change it and it should be easy and I should be good at it right away. It's like, no, maybe so many shoulds, so many shoulds in there. And maybe it is, and I love that for you. But if it's not, like, okay, take your time and yeah, like I would say starting to build that relationship with yourself first, because that relationship with yourself is where you're going to where you're going to step into the world over and over and over again and step into these relationships over and over again. And if you're doing it from this place of frustration, guilt, shame with yourself, irritability, perfectionism, that would be what I would be worth considering. And then I would I would really start with asking yourself like what seem like simple questions, but often aren't. Like I've gone through this process before. I'm like, oof, like asking myself, like, well, what do I actually want in this relationship? What about this relationship isn't working? That I'm feeling like I'm sick of being the eldest daughter in this moment, or I'm sick of being the parentified one, or I'm sick of being the mature one, the caretaker. It's like, okay, that's great information. Listen to that. Thank you. Like, that is good for me to know. What do you want? It's like, well, I don't know. And so it makes it hard to start going out and setting boundaries or having conversations. We don't actually know what we want the ideal outcome to be. Sometimes we know what we don't want, and that's incredibly insightful. But I think it can also be helpful to start to explore well, what do we want? Because the what do we want is the energy that I typically want to mobilize to act from that place because that's going to move you closer to what you want versus spending the energy on what's not working over and over again without actually knowing the direction that you want to start moving in. Yeah. And so yeah, starting to ask those questions of like, well, what's not working? How can I support myself in that? What do I want? And then questions like, what are some steps that I could start to take towards that? Because sometimes it's not that relationship isn't going to change overnight, or stepping out of that eldest daughter isn't going to shift in one conversation. But like, what are some steps that I could start to take? What feels accessible now? What's even like a baby step that I could take? Um, and maybe you feel ready for more. Maybe you're like, no, I'm my body is telling me like I have capacity, but I would just caution that because sometimes the pendulum wants to swing. And I've had it with myself where I've been like, people, people pleaser, people pleaser. And then like it swung. And I was like, oh, I don't want to be here either. I don't want to show up in relationships there. And there was a bit of a correction that I had to do. And that's okay too. Like part of stepping out of the eldest daughter is allowing yourself to be a little bit messier and allowing yourself not to be perfect, but that can feel very hard. And typically, ideally, we want to manage that so it doesn't become the pendulum swings too far that it feels like destructive in life. So another big piece that comes with that is recognizing that there will be a process of tolerating discomfort as we change that is discomfort that comes with that, and there is discomfort that will come from stepping out of that eldest daughter role, likely, assuming so. And learning how to tolerate that discomfort and knowing when that discomfort is telling you, um, maybe as a warning sign of okay, maybe I need to listen to this discomfort versus, oh, this is discomfort that I can tolerate and move through, because there's a difference. Sometimes a discomfort comes up that is actually telling us that boundary or how I want to react. I'm being asked to pause and maybe not, versus, oh, there's discomfort here because this feels new and hard, but that's an okay discomfort to move through. Um, I feel like there's so much to this question, but the the other piece that I would maybe mention is um I work a lot with parts work. So there's often like from a parts work lens, like um just like getting to know, again, just getting to know yourself, getting to know how, like how that might have served you. And maybe it's not, you know, oh my gosh, it's this is the worst thing, or I've been put in this role. And sometimes there can be like resentment and anger towards your childhood or the people in your life. And I think like there's a lot of emotion and and potentially grief, things like that to move through as you step out of that role of and sometimes almost feel like the curtain's been dropped, and you're just like, oh my gosh, like why? Like, I would never do that to my child. I see it a lot in being parent. Like, I can't, like, I feel so sad for me as a little girl now seeing I could never imagine doing that to my child, or um, things like that. So I would say, like, allowing space for there to be emotion that might need to be processed in your own space and not necessarily with the people right away, but just to give yourself that time to process and move through the impact of being in that role or feeling you needed to, even if it wasn't put on you. And then also from a strength-based perspective, like, how how has that is there ways that that you can see that as like it's it's been a positive in your life? And it might not be, and that might be like, I don't want to move into like again, not the toxic positivity world, but just like, is there a way that those like it's not, you know, the saying of like we don't necessarily need to throw the baby out in the bathwater? Maybe there's things about that role that you've been in that it's like, I don't need to get rid of all of it, and I don't need to stop doing life. But there might be things that are like, what if I were to start choosing small areas of my life or small moments or small patterns that I have? Maybe it's starting with the taking emotional responsibility for people. Maybe it's starting with that one and not all the emotional responsibility, the boundaries, the caretaking, the um, you know, the financial management of my parents, like maybe not addressing all of it, but starting kind of piece by piece with but that I it really does start with like slowing down and and getting to understand yourself and what your needs are and what your ideal relationships or preferences are at this stage of.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:25

Yeah, yeah, and a lot of self-compassion through the process because it's new, it's uncomfortable, it's it's a shift, it's a change. And so, yeah, yeah. And lots of great reflection questions there for people to consider as well. I think this probably is, you know, similar to kind of the last question, but we talked a lot about boundaries and how to set them. Um, how can elder daughters start setting boundaries without feeling guilty? Is that even a possibility?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:58

Um, it's a possibility, but I would say I wouldn't, I wouldn't make it my expectation. That wouldn't be the bar that I would set. Because often that's the perfectionist. I want to set this boundary, I want to do it great, I don't want to feel guilty. And that's the only way I'll know I did it right. And so often we are, especially when there's any sort of behavior change, we're really reflecting on how did it go? Did I do it? We're looking for evidence that that was either right or wrong, or that that's something we're gonna continue doing, especially if it's something new. If we do something new, it doesn't go great, we're like, great, not doing that again. Yeah. And so that's where it's like, well, I felt guilt, I'm not doing it right, or I shouldn't be doing it. The guilt is I've done something wrong. Right. And so I would say knowing that there likely will be guilt there at first, but that not feeding into the story that that guilt has, because guilt always has some story or narrative to it. So it's getting, it's building a relationship with your guilt. What how is this guilt showing up? How is it impacting my ability to whatever it might be, like set a boundary? Or um, you know, I think the term boundary often gets um used as an umbrella term because like a boundary is how we respond to someone else's actions or behaviors. But I think when people talk about boundaries, what they're often also alluding to is wants, needs, preferences, desires. Like how can I communicate? Like people will be like, oh, I just set a boundary. And I'm like, actually, you just communicated a want. That wasn't that wasn't a boundary, but it that it's like kind of that has become a catch-all term for a lot of things. So like the boundary is how do we respond to someone else's behavior? So if someone if if that's what you're working on, like there likely will be guilt there or discomfort. And maybe we label that discomfort as guilt, but it might be guilt can be like an umbrella term for a lot of things too. Maybe it's fear, maybe it's sadness, maybe it's anxiety, and I feel guilty. It's like, okay, well, what's that guilt telling me? And so um, yeah, I would love for I think the rec the recognition of the effort that it takes to even start to make some of the shifted shifts. And like you said, the self-compassion, um, but not letting that guilt be a barometer of what if what you're doing is like right or wrong, good or bad or good enough. Um, because guilt is that's a protective mechanism. That's that's a that's a guard that's coming up that's keeping you in that comfort zone of the eldest daughter or as the like the people pleaser or things like that. And so that's where it can often be really helpful again, like where I find therapy so helpful because the barometer of what should I feel guilty for as an eldest daughter is like there's not much. There's not much, and then it's immediate guilt. I shouldn't be everything. There's so eldest daughters hold so much guilt. Um, and so sometimes it can also be really helpful. And what I would say to your question of like, how can they begin setting boundaries without guilt? It can be really helpful to have someone to work with and have someone outside of your own perspectives and blind spots to help you build that that that confidence or that insight of is what I'm doing wrong or bad? Is it pushing back too much? Is this an unreasonable need, desire, want, ask boundary? And sometimes it takes time to learn that for yourself, to to have that self-assurance. Like that's what I talk about a lot. It's like from nice girl to self-assured, of like to have that self-assuredness of this is an okay thing for me to ask or want or need. And I need to, I need to anchor in that for myself and then communicate from that place of of trusting myself in that and knowing that. Because often, like I said, as the the eldest daughter, their love and attachment and belonging, they perceive that often as being established from absence of any sort of boundaries or self-identity. And so it's it's those are big steps to start to make for yourself. And the more that you can kind of understand yourself and have compassion and um like self-assurance in what your own needs are, and that's okay, the the guilt eventually will start to soften as you build that confidence and trust in yourself. But again, it's it's not a barometer if guilt's there. That doesn't inherently mean that it's wrong or bad.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:41

Yeah, something I tell my clients a lot too is um realistic expectation is that there may be guilt there. Unrealistic expectation is that you're gonna feel completely fine setting a boundary. So trying to kind of have realistic expectation while also having that um self-compassion while you're we're kind of you know stepping into unknown territory when we are setting or starting to set some of those boundaries. Um and I guess like my kind of like last question with this is like, how does reclaiming identity beyond the responsible or the peacekeeper one look like?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:20

Yeah, you know, a few questions are coming up to me is yeah, the question that you asked of like who am I outside of this role, but who didn't I get to be?

unknown 1:19:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:32

Also. Oh, I love that question. Who did I not get to be, or what parts of me didn't maybe have the same space or freedom or time to be expressed or developed because I was in that role? It's like what did I, and not to frame this question from like a negative skewed weight, but like what did I miss out on? Like what did I what um what didn't I get to be? And it might be, oh yeah, I never I never got to be just like silly and goofy. And that's a part of me that feels kind of underdevelopment, underdeveloped or unmet. Um, and so it might be even just starting to ask your qu yourself the questions of like, can I give my space, myself the space and the freedom and the flexibility to just be in that inquiry and see like what happens when I'm not in that? What might I want to do? And I would say, like, go try things. Like give yourself um, whenever we're doing big change, it's like identity shift in our lives, like our our cells, our DNA, our neuroconnections are rewiring, like our physical human bodies are neuroplastic. Like, well, we have neuroplasticity in our brain, but there's like a plasticity, there's a malleability to who we are. Our DNA can change, like our like cells, sorry, can change. Like there can be this change that happens in our body, even on like a molecular level. And I just think that's so cool. And sometimes we can become so identified and rigid in who we are. And it's like, what if what if that was not true, not entirely true, and that there is like there is space for me to not feel confined and imprisoned to this idea of who I am. And like maybe that is an exploration process, and maybe that is um, you know, even something I think about that I do with my nice girls often is starting to have more opinions on things or preferences on things. Like when someone asks, like, where do you want to go for dinner? It does it doesn't have to be perfect and it doesn't have to be attuning to what they might want, or going back in your head and being like, okay, what kind of food do they like? I know they like this food. Okay, I'm gonna choose that restaurant. Just starting to choose things for yourself and and go through a phase of trial and error and and trying things and see what feels good. Um and I think there's also the other element to that of stepping out of that eldest daughter role is sometimes the fear, the fragility that can come with what will happen around me. Like I feel like my whole life is held together by me being the eldest daughter. And if I step out of that role, I feel like my life is going to crumble and or that things just aren't going to be okay. And sometimes that might feel very real. Like if you're responsible for um certain family members or financial responsibilities, or if there's addiction or mental health struggles in your family, like some of those things are very, very real. So I would also say, like, if you still have there's certain relationships or dynamics or responsibilities in your life that don't feel as easy to just completely step out of. Can you start carving space for yourself in other areas of your life that are for you to reclaim for you?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:54

This conversation reminds me a little of our last episode with Lacey about self-discovery, because it is about going back to your childhood selves and maybe something that you really enjoyed but never got a chance to explore further, or like noticing things that you missed out on, like being silly and goofy and kind of giving, you know, yourself and also your inner child an opportunity to be that and do some of those things. Um, so I really like that. I like that question of what are some other things that I may have missed out on. Um, as we're kind of coming to a close, what's one thing that you wish more elder daughters understood about themselves?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:32

I think if someone is an eldest daughter and they feel like often eldest daughter, there's a lot of self-criticism and a lot of internalizing and like um personalizing. So situations that happen, there's that tendency to my fault, my responsibility. Um and and I would want oldest daughters to know about themselves that the qualities that make them that have maybe placed them in that eldest daughter role are beautiful qualities that you have. That it's like that that that's not something that's wrong with you or bad, but it's learning how to harness those qualities in a way that doesn't drain and deplete you, but you can still you can still be that attuned person, you can still be that sensitive person, you can still um, you know, like to be the one that's arranging things and and managing things, but noticing when does that become uh there's like that saying of like you're crossed to bear. And when does that become like an overfunctioning of those qualities and learning where can I still maybe show up with those qualities, but where does it become overfunctioning? And so I think that I'd want them to know that like so much of who you are is like these are such great qualities to have, and you don't need to get rid of them, but it's just learning how to manage them a little bit more and give yourself grace and give yourself time to shift out of this because you've likely spent a lot of time in this role, and it's likely held together by a lot of moving pieces, and that that can be complicated and that can feel messy, and um, but there but there is change that can be made, and finding the ways to start to create those shifts in your life can feel so good. And sometimes you don't need to make the extent of, oh, I need to flip my life upside down, but there's there's real significant change and growth and like happiness that I can see from people without feeling like they needed to rewrite their entire life, but just start to ask themselves the question of what doesn't feel like it's working, what might I want instead? What would my ideal relationship with this person be? Also, what would my ideal relationship with this person be based on who they've shown me they are, not just the fan, like the romanticized or fantasy version of that. So I think they're if you're an oldest daughter, you have so many skills and traits and qualities that are actually going to be in your benefit to addressing your oldest daughter as long as you don't get lost in the self-criticism and the perfectionism and the hyperindependence.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:12

Yeah. Oh, I love that message. Thank you so much, Alita.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:16

Where can people find you? So my Instagram is Alita Wilson, and then my website is alitawilson.com, and you can find me on both of those platforms.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:27

Yeah. And do you have any more nice girl workshops or groups coming up?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:31

Um, I have a wait list started for another round of my nice girls club. So if you go to my website um and you click on click on therapy for nice girls, there's a um a nice girls club. You can join the wait list for that. And I'm always offering one-on-one. So I offer one-on-one therapy virtually as well as in person in Collingwood, Ontario.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:54

We will have all of that in our show notes. Um, but thank you so much. This conversation was so much fun and I loved a lot of the messages that you shared. And hopefully, people had, you know, jotted some of those reflection questions down that you shared because they were really great questions just to kind of explore ourselves a little bit more. So I know I'm going to be reflecting on some of those questions later today, too.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:17

Thank you so much.