Episode 68 - Understanding Your Relationship Patterns with Jordan Hunsberger

If you’ve ever found yourself thinking “why do I keep ending up in the same kind of relationship?”—this episode is for you.

In this conversation, I sit down with Jordan, a couples psychotherapist, to unpack why these patterns happen in the first place. From attachment styles to nervous system familiarity, we explore how our past experiences shape who we’re drawn to—and why unhealthy dynamics can sometimes feel like “chemistry.”

Most importantly, we talk about how to start breaking these cycles. What does it actually look like to choose differently? And how can you begin building something that actually feels secure and fulfilling?

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

I am my sister, social worker, and donor of families and out-of-day office and my mom, wife, daughter, sister, and friends. We'll be chatting about everything from mental health and relationships to media and climate, as well as personal experiences and reflections. All in the hope of normalizing our humanness and helping you see that you're not alone. This is Outside the Therapy Room. Hi everyone. Welcome back to Outside the Therapy Room. Today, Jordan is here with us. Hi, Jordan.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

Hello.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

How's your day?

SPEAKER_03 0:44

Good. Yeah, really good.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

That's great. You've been on the podcast for season one, but this is your first time in season two. So would you introduce yourself to listeners?

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Yeah. So I'm a therapist here at New Moon, and I, you know, I work with a fair number of couples and then a lot of individuals uh as well. Um and and working with individuals who are doing dealing with relationship issues as well, as we'll we'll kind of talk about later. Um I'm a musician. I have a like I love video games and movies, and I uh have a dog who I uh love going for walks with, uh, as well as a wife and two kids.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Yeah. Oh, that's so great. And I know your husky is so cute. I've gotten a chance to see pictures, and he's adorable. Um so as you kind of pointed out, like our conversation today is I think something that's very common in therapy in my therapy room with my clients, um, a lot of female clients who are asking, like, why do I keep up, like, why do I keep ending in these kinds of relationships? They're starting to kind of notice a pattern in relationships in the past and really getting maybe a little frustrated as to why the same pattern is kind of showing up. And so whether it's like, I guess, emotionally unavailable partners or there's a sense of inconsistency in the relationship, these patterns, like like I said, can create a lot of frustration, confusion, and a lot of self-blame sometimes. So I thought maybe we could talk a little bit about why these patterns happen in the first place. And I know you practice from like an attachment style lens. Um, so we can kind of maybe understand a little bit um like why these patterns are happening. So yeah, what I guess what's your take on it right now?

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Yeah, well, I mean, it's interesting, you know, I work with a lot of men and and although although I find men talk about relationship patterns in, I'm obviously there's exceptions, but often talk about them in different ways. It's like uh, you know, I kind of feel like maybe I see things on like the other side of what maybe some of your female clients are talking about, right? I mean, um, so yeah, I mean, definitely there's there's a lot of different types of patterns that can kind of show up in in relationships, and it definitely has to do with things like attachment or early relationships with with caregivers that kind of influence how we kind of you know um treat ourselves and treat the people around us and what kind of responses people evoke in us and we evoke in them. Um so I mean, being I work with a lot of couples, I'm always thinking about what you know, what both people are kind of bringing to uh to the pattern. So I'm we'll kind of get into more into that as we go here, perhaps.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Yeah, that's interesting though, to see like your perspective from the male clients that you're working with, maybe versus like my perspective with some of the female clients that I work with. Because I think we've we've probably heard it from both, right? Or from all. Like everyone at some point may have wondered, like, you know, there's a pattern that I'm noticing in my relationships, and I want it to kind of end, whether that's um like platonic friendship relationships or romantic relationships. Um, I think it's common. Like even just, you know, with some friend groups, it's also like, well, I we always end up inviting a friend that there's these patterns that happen. Um so yeah, I guess like, you know, how do, or I guess how can someone tell that they're in a relationship pattern rather than maybe having some bad experiences?

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Right. Yeah, this is a really good question. So I definitely think that it's like if you think you're in a pattern, you probably are. And then if you feel like you can't spot the pattern, then like there might still be one, but you may need kind of some help being able to understand what's going on there. Um, but often uh it's certainly like just kind of one-off bad experiences do happen. I I I'm not sure what you find with with people, but I often find when when something is kind of more of a one-off bad experience, people are often pretty clear on like, okay, I know what went wrong there, like, or I know what this person did that made me feel bad, and I know that I don't deserve it, and they're kind of more quick to kind of maybe walk away from that or set boundaries or different things like that. Whereas when it is a pattern, it does tend to be this thing that kind of keeps sticking around and and and can be hard to change.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

I'd agree. I think when it is that bad experience, exactly as you said, it's oh, why couldn't I see this sooner? Why couldn't I have noticed it? Uh or I need to set boundaries, or even the end of that relationship doesn't feel as heavy. There's a little bit more of an awareness and maybe a sense of relief with the end of the relationship. But yeah, I agree with you. When it's become a pattern, there can be sometimes what I've noticed is a lot more grief at the end, and sometimes more of that grief towards like all of the experiences or towards that person in in particular. Um but yeah, I guess like it is, you know, different person, but same same feeling, same kind of situations are coming up. And um, yeah, I think that's sometimes what hits people is like, but this is a brand new person. Why is this pattern kind of happening again?

SPEAKER_03 6:10

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Yeah. What are some common patterns that you notice um from like maybe maybe your clients or people in your life um when we're talking about like these, you know, maybe like quote unquote unhelpful or negative patterns?

SPEAKER_02 6:27

So there's like this big kind of um, I don't know, like macro pattern that that like um couples therapists like to kind of use to understand all the different like kind of individual patterns that that we see. And the term that we use for it is like pursuer withdrawer or sometimes pursuer distancer. So it's like this idea that like there's one person, there always seems to be one person in a relationship who tends to be more likely to be the one who says, you know, I'm always the one who brings up date night, or I can't stand when things feel unresolved. So and I always end up being the one who brings up the difficult, the difficult conversations to try to find some sort of resolution. And then the other person very often is like saying things like, you know, I don't understand why my partner can't just trust that I love them without me having to reassure them all the time, or I don't think there's any point in talking about uh difficult things when we're emotional. We need to wait until our heads are cooled in order to actually make progress on an issue. And maybe you can already start to see how these two tendencies tend to kind of feed off of each other, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Mm-hmm. Yeah, the pursuer withdrawer. Do you think that that's always I mean, you said that this is what you know therapists like to kind of see, but do you have you always, or I guess have you ever seen like a withdrawal, withdrawer or pursuer, pursuer?

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Yeah, it it can happen, but uh it's certainly less common. And so usually when you see uh when when there's a withdrawal or withdrawer, we tend to like when you dig into the history, you tend to find out that one of them used to be kind of more the pursuer and they just got burnt out on pursuing. And so now as a way of kind of like, like kind of protecting themselves, they kind of start to take on that more withdrawer um perspective, but it's they don't feel good about it. They're like, this is kind of like what I have to do to like not be pulling my hair out, but I don't actually like this isn't actually how I like would prefer to be handling things. Pursuer, pursuer is like you these these couples tend to be way more explosive, and so then they tend to like burn out the like relationships actually end a lot sooner. I uh I find it's like they like they can be both, it's like somebody all usually has to be the one to say, well, we're not getting anywhere, we have to to back away. That's not necessarily like that. Ideally, that comes from like a healthier place where we're kind of like you know, setting a time when we're gonna come back to it and and we're agreeing that that this is an important topic and all those sorts of things. But if you have two people who just can't let things go, like I'm sure most people can kind of imagine how that how that kind of starts to look after after a while. But in general, it's like even right from like couples where there's like a lot of stuff going on that's negative all the way up to some of the happiest couples in the world, like you would still find there does tend to be just one person who will be more of the pursuer and one person who will be more of the withdrawal. They could we kind of just or people are just kind of wired this way, or or it tends to like like one tends to just kind of create the other. Um, so I mean, I think I saw a statistic somewhere that it was something like 80% of couples or something like that could be kind of described within the pursuer withdrawer. I mean, that still leaves obviously a fair number of couples that that uh kind of fall into these other categories, but it's most of the time people are can kind of look at it in in those terms.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Yeah, and I think like looking at it as a pursuer withdrawer also taught like touches into or I guess gives us an understanding as to some of the common patterns that show up, which is like, you know, something I've often heard is like I I'm maybe um like the pattern is emotionally unavailable partners, or you know, partners who can't communicate consistently or can't communicate emotionally at all, or there's a lot of like the feeling anxious in the relationship, like I'm constantly chasing my partner. So being the pursuer. Um, and so even in in those, there's already kind of like you can imagine a dynamic of that withdrew or emotionally unavailable partner. Well, somebody is withdrawing and the other one is maybe trying to pursue more of like an emotional connection with that person, and same with the inconsistent communication. Um, so that that makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Yeah, and I think it's also important to uh keep in mind that there are, I mean, there are different types of pursuers and withdrawers, but there's actually, in my experience, it feels like there's almost more variation in terms of what a withdrawal will look like because you'll have a withdrawal who like gives the silent treatment, or they just always shut down when when there starts to be conflict, or you will you can also have what we sometimes call like a hit and run withdrawal, like they'll say something hurtful and then they'll walk out of the room. So it's like they look kind of reactive, but actually like the their reactiveness is kind of just a way to get kind of to shut things down so that they can leave. And then there's also like a really, and maybe this is one that we'll come back to uh later on as well, but there is also like like the placating withdrawer, right? So these are the the like the withdrawers who tend to be people pleasers, right? It's like they kind of say the things that they think their partner wants to hear, but they're not necessarily engaging, you know, in any sort of deep way. Um and then likewise, like with pursuers, like I mean, like pursuers often will see themselves as like I'm just trying to like keep the relationship together, or it's like we need to talk about these things. And like, of course, there's there's a lot of validity to that, just like there's some validity to um a withdrawal saying, like, maybe we're not actually going to get anywhere if we're if we're talking about this when we're totally reactive and that sort of thing. I think it's it's but it's important to acknowledge too that for the withdrawers like often experience their pursuing partner as being very mean and very critical at times like this, and that tends to just trigger more of that sense of conflict is dangerous. I need to avoid it at all costs.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Yeah, conflict is really uncomfortable for a lot of people. And sometimes that can it does impact the relationship a lot. Um but yeah, why do you think though these patterns happen? Um, you know, I've heard from like some of my clients and people in my life of like, this is my type. I'm just attracted to these types of people. But why why do you think that happens? Why do you think people um like keep choosing similar patterns in the relationships, knowing that maybe they're not gonna work out?

SPEAKER_02 13:05

Yeah. It's it can sometimes be tough to say. I mean, part of it too is that like there's only so many like types out there, right? I mean, so we've kind of touched on the gender thing a little bit. Like um, these things are not like strictly defined by gender roles. Like you can have female withdrawers and you can have male pursuers, but they it it does tend to be more common that you have a female with uh pursuer and a and a male withdrawer. So that can be part of it. Like, and I think a lot of this does have to do with like not necessarily something biological, but something about the way we kind of socialize women to like you're supposed to talk about your feelings and men, you're not supposed to talk about your feelings. And so that kind of feeds into this. So there's probably just not, you know, uh a lot of kind of um if you're someone who who really values emotional availability, there there might not actually be that many emotionally, like truly emotionally available partners out there. Um fine to like it people sometimes need to think about how it is that they're meeting people, right? I mean, so things like um substance issues can be something that kind of factors into this pursue withdrawal cycle too. Often like the a withdrawal will use substances to kind of like numb out from the pain that they kind of experience in when there's tension. Um and so I I you know, I often find, you know, for people to think about like, I mean, that maybe this is kind of a cliched example, but it's like if you're always, you know, meeting potential partners in bars or something like that, like that, like there is something to be said about the fact that like where are you looking for for partners and are you actually like going, like trying to find people in ways that is that kind of uh communicates from the beginning about the the need for for emotional like availability and that sort of thing? Like I also I find like it doesn't have to be this way with with uh with every kind of situation that you might be meeting someone in, but it uh there there's often patterns that can be connected to that uh as well. I don't know if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

Uh but yeah, I think that makes sense. I also think maybe yes, obviously, like where people are meeting potential partners obviously has a an impact. But I'm curious, and we touched a little bit on this at the beginning, if attachment styles are maybe mixed up in in the selection uh of a partner and maybe a partner that kind of repeats or partners that repeat these patterns. Where are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 15:45

Yeah, yeah, I think it it does, right? I mean, attachment styles will um have a lot to do with with kind of our kind of natural personality, but also like the way that we're that we were used to being treated uh when we when we were kind of growing up. So like um, you know, if I if I grew up feeling like, you know, voicing my needs actually caused my parents to get overwhelmed or something like that. So it was safer to just kind of keep quiet and and hope that they will realize what I need on their own. That's that's going to lead to you probably being drawn to people who go more out of their way to have the emotional conversations, right? Like so I'm thinking like, you know, this is someone who maybe would have an avoidant attachment style and maybe kind of look like a withdrawal, or they're they're probably not gonna feel comfortable like starting a relationship where they have to be the one to always raise the emotional issues. So they're not gonna end up with their kind of, you know, withdrawers or other people who are more avoidant, right? Um, and then likewise it's like if I feel like grow growing up, I had to, you know, always be uh always had to make a big stink in order for for people to even recognize that I was there or that I had needs, then then I'm gonna feel kind of more at home with with someone who who kind of needs to be responded to in that way.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Yeah. As we're getting into attachment styles, can you define what attachment styles are and also the type of um attachments, just for folks who may be listening and and it's their first time hearing attachment styles?

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, there's uh attachment styles are these kind of like categories that like researchers use and they can be very helpful, I think, for like reflecting on our own behavior and that sort of thing. I mean, just like with the pursuer-withdraw thing, it's you know, they're they're not hard and fast. There is kind of flexibility and they can be relationship dependent too. Um, so I mean, someone listening to this particular conversation might not find that things vary from one relationship to the next, but that is actually something that that's possible. Um so basically the idea with an attachment style is it's like actually most people have a secure attachment style, which means that they actually feel more or less comfortable like kind of expressing their needs and then getting um like having that be responded to. So it's like you think about a child who's upset and they cry and their parent comes and comforts them and they can kind of take in that comfort and they can calm down. Then you have like someone who maybe would be uh termed as like an anxiously attached, or or perhaps some some people will use the term preoccupied, meaning that like they, you know, as a as a child, it's like uh they if their parent walked away or something like that, they would immediately start to feel that separation anxiety and they would start to get upset. And it's like maybe when the parent comes back, they can calm them down. It might take some time, but but they can kind of be calmed down if they actually feel like the presence of the parent coming back and and kind of reassuring them. And then when we get into the avoidant attachment style, this is, you know, uh like a kid who will like, you know, they don't actually seem to show that much, you know, interest in like their their the fact that their parent has left, for example, um, and like they don't necessarily look happy um either, but it's like then the parent comes back and it it doesn't actually seem to be kind of helping them feel any happier. It's so so that it's this kind of like they can look kind of like already as as a young kid, they look like they can kind of be feel quite distant from from their loved ones. Um and then there's also this kind of fourth category, which is called disorganized attachment, basically meaning um uh, you know, it's kind of like a mix of the other two. It's like they they get upset when the parent leaves, and then they actually sometimes get even more upset when the parent comes back. Um, and so this often shows up as like an adulthood kind of saying things like, um, I mean, that there's actually this book that has to do with um uh borderline personality disorder other. I'm not sure if you've heard of it. It's called I I I Hate You, Don't Leave Me. It's something like that. It's it's this this idea, it's like I'm really mad at you when you're here, but actually when you, but I the last thing I want is for you to leave. And so they can this, these people like this can kind of look like they're they're upset with the state of the relationship no matter what.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Yeah. Yeah. And I think like with attachment styles, a lot of these, you know, end up um kind of showing back up in adult relationships. And so then we can form these types of styles to our relationships. And as you pointed out, I think it also varies with relationships. We can feel, you know, in an anxious attachment style to a friend or to, you know, a colleague at work or with a romantic partner, um, it really does kind of it's not just for romantic relationships, but I think within attachment styles too, something that you kind of touched on is the familiarity. So even though maybe, again, like what's familiar to them isn't necessarily like quote unquote healthy and they might be aware of that, the familiarity still can create a sense of safety. Do you think that that is a pattern that can sometimes show up, then maybe cause these, you know, relationships where we're then left with like, oh, why didn't I see this before? Or, you know, kind of maybe um we're feeling an attraction to folks that we feel like are familiar and then they end up not working out.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Yeah, I definitely do think that that that can be a thing. Like there is something about familiar feeling safer than unfamiliar for sure, right? Like um, and that can kind of manifest as being more drawn to to people who kind of follow these kind of familiar. who demonstrate these kind of familiar patterns that we're kind of used to getting from from other people.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Yeah. How much do you think our nervous system plays into maybe like who we're attracted to or who we choose to be in a relationship with? Or do you think that it connects?

SPEAKER_02 22:16

Well yeah, I mean I think it's yeah. I I I mean I guess it uh it's it's probably all of it. Like I mean I guess yeah there's I mean it's there's not uh yeah I'm not sure what else what else kind of does factor in aside from the the nervous system in a way, right? Yeah. I mean I think there's also something here about like with when it comes to these sort of like um attachment style things there's there's a lot of it has to do with like how we treat ourselves too. Like I think that like the way often the ways that we've treated ourselves kind of are kind of like a continuation of these things that happened when when we were growing up and and so it's it can either be kind of like a uh an internalizing of of how our caregivers treated us or it can be like this is what I had to do in order to get my needs met in my family or this is what I had to do to cope with the fact that my needs weren't getting met. And then it's like you know you get into this place where if this is how you treat yourself, it actually will say a lot about what you're going to tolerate from how other people treat you. I think a lot of people kind of fantasize about having a partner who treats them better than they treat themselves. In my experience I it it doesn't work that way, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Yeah. But I I think you're right. There's a lot of these beliefs right like I have to like and and again these beliefs can come from childhood sometimes but it's like I have to earn love. And so sometimes putting themselves in situations for a longer period of time than maybe you know they should have or they would have um so there are a lot of like these these beliefs or these um yeah kind of like relationship that they have with themselves that then can just cause them to kind of be in in these patterns in terms of like their dating experience. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:05

I think another belief too that that I that I've noticed can be this kind of sense of like I'm responsible for this other person. So it's like maybe you grew up in a house where you were like like you were your one of your parents like confidant, right? So you were this kind of like emotionally supportive presence for one of your parents in a way that was like maybe kind of inappropriate for the kind of the roles and and the stage that that that you were in. But you can kind of internalize this sense of like I'm responsible for other people's wellbeing then you can kind of get into a relationship in the future as an adult where it's like this is part of how you are approaching life. It's like you feel this sense of responsibility for other people's emotional well-being. And now you're with this partner who doesn't seem to talk about their feelings very much. And like maybe that's a problem but also like maybe there's like you have this kind of sense that in order to deal with your feelings you have to talk about them in a certain way. And then now it's my job to make sure that you're talking about your feelings. So it's like it's one thing when it's like I need to hear what you feel about the relationship so that I know where I stand with you. But it could also be like it could kind of branch into this maybe sense of over responsibility where it's just like I actually need you to talk about how stressed you are at work with me because otherwise I'm worried you're going to get overwhelmed and I won't know like how you're actually doing with your work stress and and I feel responsible for making sure you you're like doing a good job of like processing your work stress or something like that. And that might not actually be helpful in the context of the relationship because you might the like it could be but it also might be the the case that the the partner has their own ways of dealing with the work stress that doesn't involve processing it with their partner. And even if it's not the case, it's like it doesn't necessarily mean it's your responsibility just because they're not talking about it doesn't mean it's your it has to be your job to make them talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

Yeah yeah definitely I think I think too a pattern that I've noticed and this kind of goes into our next um kind of question but it's you know for folks who were maybe in a more like chaotic high conflict childhood those dynamics even though they're unhealthy might feel a little bit more exciting. So then you know getting into a relationship with somebody who's like you know emotionally mentally healthy whatever we want to call it more stable it can feel really boring for partners so they're like no it's a relationship so boring there's no spark there's no whatever um when in reality we're able to as therapists we're able to kind of zoom back and be like well wait a second maybe you know there was because of this unhealthy dynamic things felt a little bit more exciting or familiar or that excitement or maybe like that anxiety in the relationship looked more like passion or the spark or or whatever butterflies in your stomach whatever it can be. But do you think that that again like I guess why why why does that happen? Why do these maybe unhealthy dynamics feel more intense than maybe more stable ones?

SPEAKER_02 27:19

Yeah yeah so to me there there's kind of two two sides to this so so one is is also I think this idea that like you think about it like water is way more refreshing when you're thirsty or like food tastes way better when you're really hungry. And so it's like if in general your needs aren't getting met in the relationship, those times where they are getting met are going to feel even more intense because it's going to feel like so much more of a relief to finally have that need met. So I think that can be a part of it. I think there's also this part of it that that I see coming up for for some people where they actually say, oh this this relationship is healthy but it's boring and when I kind of dig into it with them what I find is like well there's less conflict but actually it's not necessarily healthier in the sense that that there isn't really the depth of connection or vulnerability that that that actually I think often can make uh relationships their at their best right and and a big one actually comes up with this what I was saying before about the the placating withdrawal. It's like sometimes people will say oh my partner treats me so much better than all of my other partners they're not neglectful like they actually like well have conversations with me. They do things for me that that show me that they love me. And but it's like the more we dig into it it's just like well there's something not genuine about it though, right? Like it's it's like this kind of like this is their it's almost like this is this partner's way of like keeping the heat off right it's it's like it's actually not coming from this genuine vulnerable I'm I'm in this relationship with you. And so sometimes it's like that boredom actually is can sometimes be pointing to something really important, which is that yeah there's no there's not as much conflict but there's still not the depth that someone needs. I mean I think this does start to get into then the question of like uh like a good enough relationship. And I mean this is a very subjective thing that I think everyone has to kind of decide for themselves, right? There's no perfect relationship where you know you're you're always going to know for sure how your partner feels about you. They're never going to criticize you and there's always going to be this really deep kind of emotional connection at all times. Like that's not going to happen. And then there's everything between that and like uh I don't know like an abusive relationship there's this like wide spectrum there and and everyone kind of has to decide what's good enough.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

But it's like yeah some for some people it's like actually would prefer the kind of ups and downs over the kind of the that kind of bored lack of any depth even even if it like in some ways on paper looks healthier which which is obviously it can be a tough decision I think for a lot of people to make that is tough because externally you know friends may be praising the relationship or comparing their partners but then for that actual individual they're like yeah but it there's not like that depth like you said right in the relationship which yeah then is it's really challenging and can be really confusing too yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Yeah and how many long-term relationships are out there where that they end in some sort of separation and everyone around them goes oh but their your relationship looks so perfect on the outside and that's because I think it's missing I mean there's a lot that can go on behind closed doors but even even if that's not the case there's there's a lot that's that can be missing in a relationship where people are really good co-parents and it's like they they look like amazing roommates right but but there isn't that kind of deeper that deeper connection that I think is really vital in in a yeah in a relationship.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Yeah 100% like we all can think of somebody right like yeah yeah it can it can be hard for sure um you know speaking of like signs like what are some signs um early on that somebody might be repeating a pattern um in their relationship but maybe not realizing it yeah yeah this is this is a really good question too I think that um a big one actually is just like people don't pay enough attention to their own feelings like it's like I actually think like like how you are feeling like all of your feelings right like not just those exciting passionate ones but also the how you feel when when things are calm it's like are you feeling bored or or disconnected or how you're feeling when something look when someone is kind of like not there.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

It's like are you feeling kind of like anxious that they're kind of uh you know that they've lost interest in you or or or these sorts of things. I think it's really important to be able to pay attention to these feelings not so that you always do exactly what the feeling is telling you to do. Sometimes feelings can be more about the past than about the present but you have to be able to pay enough attention to those feelings in order in order to know that they're about the past. But often pe I find people, I mean just people in general, whatever the issue that we're talking about is nobody likes to kind of zero in on their kind of uncomfortable feelings but that is I think where we're going to get the most important information about how things are going early on in in a relationship.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Yeah I think like a lot of people ignore like those signs early on right especially at the beginning of a relationship they might push through being like oh I need to give this person another chance or you know maybe I'm feeling this way because it is new or whatever. And I think there is a lot of ignoring like those maybe like early discomfort or or emotions. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

So yeah that makes a lot of I think one of the ways yeah and I think one of the ways that people do that actually like and it obviously the the thought process is probably going to be different for everyone but there is there that can be this sense of like well I'm aware that there's an issue but part of me just hopes it's gonna get better on its own. It's just like usually things don't get better on their own. It's like you're either working on it or you're just gonna be tolerating it. And and so you have to kind of be honest with yourself. It's just like well this like this isn't going to just get fixed just because we're together for a longer period of time. So yeah I don't know I guess some people maybe do actually just not see these things but I but I often find digging into these things with people it's just like well there were like there were internal signs too right it's like you had feelings about what your partner was doing that that you didn't pay attention to so you know I don't have a list of like these are the red flags that everyone should should be kind of looking for early in a relationship but I think the kind of the the universal advice here is like follow like pay attention to those feelings so that you can at least know what what they're saying even if you don't end up following yeah I think again there's so much I think now like with social media there's so many like ooh look out for these red flags or these are green flags in a in a partner or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

But I think sometimes we can overrationalize some of the red flags and we can like forgive people really quickly right so like you know partners disconnected from me missed three dates that we had scheduled but you know maybe they're busy whatever or it's going to get fixed later right once we're together a little longer we move in together like there's not going to be canceling dates or whatever it could be. And so we can sometimes like overrationalize these like quote unquote red flags and then it and then like it doesn't actually end up pulping or we don't actually bring our concern or our feelings to the forefront with that partner. And so I agree with you I think a lot of like the you know what are some signs it's it really is like well what how are how are you feeling are you ignoring our your discomfort are your thoughts kind of are you feeling a certain way but you're trying to talk yourself out of feeling that way about your partner or the relationship? Are things moving a little bit too fast emotionally but it feels really comforting for you. And so you want to kind of keep keep going into that relationship or maybe like I said sometimes we can confuse anxiety for excitement or excitement for like vice versa. So sometimes it could be like I feel really anxious in this relationship but it's clouded as excitement like oh I'm so nervous I'm like I'm excited I'm you know doing all these things so I think it does really start with our own self-awareness and our own understanding and validating of the emotions that are coming up.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

Yeah I think there's also you know there can be uh something important too about it like acknowledging that you know um being in a relationship is really important for some people right it's like the idea of not actually like being single is is like quite distressing for for some people and and again I think that's like a like that's like important to just like kind of like acknowledge and validate in yourself. Like you might not want to stay there forever but if you can't accept that actually part of the reason I'm staying in this relationship is just because I don't want to be alone like like I think that's also like kind of an emotional experience that has to be processed and that means you have to pay attention to it in order to process. But I will also say that throughout most of human history most human beings were better off in an unhealthy relationship than completely on their own. Humans are terrible at surviving on their own. So there's probably like good reasons why we're drawn to like I would rather have someone around who's mistreating me than not have anyone around at all.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Yeah yeah yeah it can be and I think too like our body sometimes knows before our mind catches up with it. So like yeah yeah um oh I guess like you know moving into that how can someone learn to trust their instincts more when things are feeling off because like I said there can be a lot of like convincing ourselves that something is working maybe a lot longer than than what it maybe needed to and I can speak to this more so in like friendships, right? Like sometimes in friendships we can make a lot of you know I don't want to say like excuses, but like you know we maybe overrationalize the mistreatment or the disconnection or the lack of effort that a friend is making for us. But we we sit with that a little bit longer than maybe we need to instead of trusting that intuition of like oh maybe this relationship is just not what it used to be or you know really holding on to the relationship because of the history around it. So yeah, how can folks maybe listen to listen to their bodies or to their intuition a little bit more?

SPEAKER_02 37:46

This is where I often work with individuals on this idea of being able to kind of get in touch of like with what do I need from myself in in this situation? Because very often like going back to what I was just saying about this idea of like I'd rather be with in an unhealthy relationship than in no relationship at all, I think having this this sense of like okay there there can be something you know important about not being alone but also if there's this kind of core wound of loneliness in your life where it's like you felt kind of abandoned a lot by a lot of different people in the past you haven't kind of worked through those those wounds then then you're gonna be like hypersensitive to something that that feels like it could lead to abandonment and that often means leads to people not setting boundaries and not kind of voicing their needs because it's like I set a boundary with this person. They're just going to walk away from me and I can't handle that. And people need to learn how to like okay that did happen if if I did like have to end this relationship or I set a boundary or voiced a need and the other person whether it's a friend or a partner walks away from me what do I need for myself to be able to handle that and there can be something very empowering about knowing it's like I mean this takes this takes a lot of work but knowing that I can be there for myself that I can actually like support myself through that and uh and that I don't have to be trapped in that pain of of feeling alone if that happens like that can that can often really increase our ability to pay attention to those feelings and and actually make the decision that that ultimately feels healthier for us in the long run.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Yeah yeah I agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

I think too like having that awareness is maybe one of the first steps to breaking the pattern of like you know seeking out unhealthy relationships but that that can be really hard.

SPEAKER_02 39:50

And so you know to and like I'm sure a lot of people are like okay well how I'm aware that there's a pattern now how do I break it what are some things that you would say for folks to start kind of having that level of curiosity and awareness within themselves yeah well on a relationship level it tends to take both like to really break the pattern thoroughly it takes the awareness on both people's like like both partners are to be actually pay attention to like we like I mean this is a big thing that I'm trying to help couples do when I when I'm working with them is like understand what their pattern is, uh like understand what they're both doing in in the like in that pattern to kind of perpetuate it and then really get at what are the kind of like um like the underlying needs that aren't being met or uh or that were met in the past in a really significant way that are kind of contributing to me kind of feeling this way when when conflict or or whatever it is that that's happening that the the where the pattern is showing up. I think the big thing though is for for I mean someone listening to this podcast is you really like do need to focus on like like what's happening for you in those in in those things. I mean like I don't want people to kind of come away from this feeling like they're like they need to be blaming or criticizing themselves for this but it's like the what's happening internally is so much more in your control especially if your partner's not willing to kind of you know work with you on this or go to couples therapy with you or something like that. It's like if I mean we're all very focused I think rightly sometimes on on what our partners do that that bother us but if if we're kind of not aware of those maybe unhealed wounds that kind of make that even more triggering for us or or different things like that, then then we're kind of at their mercy, right? Like if it's all the blame is on my partner, then I don't have any control over what's what's happening between us, right? So that's like the blame and responsibility kind of and and ability to kind of change things kind of has to be I mean it doesn't need to be 50-50 exactly but there needs to be an acknowledgement of on both sides of of what can be done differently. And if that's that's not the case, because I do believe there are some situations where that's actually not the case that I mean that's a relationship where it's like you you either need to leave or you're going to be living through this pattern repeating it's it can Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

Yeah yeah it's definitely I really like what you say there about you know kind of starting with yourself because there can be a lot of blame that is put on a partner and I think that's where a lot of conflict starts because then that partner's feeling not good enough or always kind of feeling like they're being told what to do or what they're lacking and doing. And then that can sometimes build up a lot of emotions underneath and if if it's not a type of relationship where people are communicating about their emotions then it kind of just stays there and it's going to kind of continue to bring up these patterns. But for you know that was like in a relationship but for folks who are maybe out of a relationship are single maybe have ended a relationship and are able to kind of reflect back and notice patterns between their former partners what what would you kind of suggest to them apart from like awareness so that they can break the pattern in a new relationship uh so yeah I mean I think a lot of this comes back to paying attention to the feelings I think like awareness is is is very important.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

I know you said kind of like outside of a relationship I want to mention too like um it's like working on these things near the end of a relationship can can also be valuable too and and I'll I'll say about more maybe maybe I'll say more about that a little bit later. But yeah it's like really pay like uh attention to those feelings those unresolved wounds that I was talking about if we're not kind of conscious of like yeah I mean what's the kind of like the core pain in in my life like What what what what is the the kind of painful feelings that kind of keep seem to keep coming up in a lot of different situations, then then like uh it can be really hard actually to make different uh decisions if if we're not kind of working on those things. So I mean I definitely think it's a good idea to like like seek therapy or or really focus on on those sorts of things, uh, you know, with in your kind of personal reflection or or different things like that.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

Like the curiosity, like just being curious over your like your your things that are coming up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like why like like why am I so sensitive to this thing or something something like that, right? It's like, you know, um, if you know, every time I'm in a relationship and uh a partner doesn't text me back right away, it's just like part of that could be because uh like that's the my feeling of getting upset about that is like telling me really important information about how unavailable this person is. But actually sometimes it can be that like, well, like I really have there, really is something about feeling abandoned that kind of keeps coming up for me in a lot of like whether it's with partners or or friends, or it's not like sometimes these things will even like come up at work. It's just like I have to be perfect at work or or I'll get rejected work. So it's like if there are these kind of themes across different areas of your life, it's like that can be a big clue about something that's going to be like affecting something that's so important, like uh like your romantic relationships.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think also like, you know, once we start getting curious and we're being able to kind of reflect on what's coming up for us, how we're feeling about these things, that's when boundaries can also be introduced of like, okay, what boundaries do we maybe need to set in relationships early? Or even if it's um, you know, an existing relationship that you're in, it's like, okay, well, what boundaries do I need to set with myself or with my partner to kind of allow things to to like be in a place that feels a little bit safer or more comfortable? What are some like practical steps that people can maybe, you know, we've mentioned a couple, be aware, be like curious with yourself. Um, but what are some other like maybe two other things that they that client or the listeners can maybe start doing?

SPEAKER_02 46:29

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I again I'll I will say it's like the like therapy is is of course like a really really good idea. And again, even if you aren't sure that you want to stay in a relationship, actually like couples therapy can be a really powerful way of kind of getting at what it is that you keep bringing. Like, so sometimes something that uh therapists will say when when people aren't sure is just like, well, if uh whatever you're bringing to the table here, you will likely bring to future relationships. So even if this work doesn't kind of benefit doesn't actually save this relationship, you'll both be better off in future relationships for having done this work. Um and then outside of outside of that, I mean, a big kind of like uh way of reflecting on this that I that I would kind of encourage people to consider would be kind of like looking at uh like fights that stick out in your memory or or kind of moments of disconnection or what uh whatever it is that stick out in your memory. Like so these are the things that are kind of symbolize the types of patterns that that that you get into. And you want to kind of ask yourself, like, uh I mean, like these kind of three questions of like, you know, what did I feel uh sorry I wrote this down because I wanted to make sure I got to this. So you know, what are you feeling? Um what did you do and what did you need? Right? Okay, and then and then you want to make sure that you're actually answering these questions on a fairly on a fairly deep level. So like saying like I felt frustrated, um, you know, because my partner left the cap on the toothpaste or something like that. Um and then what I needed was uh and so then I kind of you know asked my partner to like try to remember to to do these things and and and what I needed was for them to like remember to do the things that I've asked them to do, right? Okay, so this this kind of answers the questions that I'm talking about, but but it's missing some really important information. So like a deeper answer to this might be something like I felt so disregarded when I saw that the cap was off the toothpaste because it seems like my partner doesn't listen to me or care about my feelings. What I really needed to know was that even though my partner has a million things on their plate, that how I feel is still a high priority to them, right? So it's like this is a much deeper answer to that question. And the result of that might be like, well, a lot of the partners that I'm with maybe don't have the capacity to like show me that I'm a priority when when they're overwhelmed. And so then that then becomes a quest, like a way of thinking about future relationships too. It's like, okay, with this person, you know, they don't have to be perfect, but it's like when they've got a lot going on, it's like, can they still in a genuine way tell me how much they care about me? I mean, this is like, you know, uh, this is what makes relationships survive stressful situations, is we can still show each other that we love each other, even if we can't do all the things that we do when when we're not kind of alled in a lot of different directions. Um yeah, I hopefully that kind of gives people a sense of like some some ways of actually kind of working on this on their own. For some people, it might be kind of hard to kind of get to those deeper answers on their own. And that's definitely an indication that having a having like a good relationship with a therapist can kind of help help you kind of get to those deeper answers.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

Mm-hmm. I love all those questions. And I like how you kind of described it like surface level and then going in a little deeper because I think at the beginning it can be scary to kind of go back and admit these things. So it we might be a little bit more surface level with our responses, but really allowing ourselves to go in a little deeper and to really see like, yeah, it feels like I'm being disregarded. It feels like I'm I'm, you know, I'm not a priority. Um, but yeah, when we go back um and kind of reflect on, you know, fights or disagreements or whatever, we're doing so in in a helpful way, not or in a curious way, not in a self-critical way. So yeah, so like to what you said for folks listening, like go back, you're not saying like, oh, I was so mean or I said this thing or I'm such an awful person. We're just going back to get what you said, right? Like what what happened, what did I do, and then what did I need in that moment? Because we are using it as a form of curiosity to help us understand these things and what we're actually needing and wanting. Um, not to go back and just like attack ourselves for how we responded to a situation. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:07

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, generally people have good reasons why they responded the way they did. It's like this this kind of act of reflection helps us. I mean, sometimes the phrase I will use with people is like, you're doing your best, but we're trying to make your best better, right? Like we we want to kind of um learn from these things through this this reflection, which is something that we can do, right? It's uh and that's really important.

SPEAKER_00 51:32

Mm-hmm. Yeah. What's like one last takeaway that you would share um for our listeners, whether they're maybe outside of a like single right now and just reflecting back on, you know, previous relationships and seeing a pattern, or for folks who are currently in relationships and noticing that some of these patterns are continuing to come up in their relationship.

SPEAKER_02 51:56

Yeah, I mean, I think a like a big takeaway I think that would be helpful for people would be like, I mean, we talk about kind of healthy and unhealthy or helpful and unhelpful, but I think that like what really matters here is the needs. It's like we all have needs in in relationships. Um, and I believe all human beings are entitled to have their needs met in their relationships. Some needs we do have to kind of process and let go of, but by and large, it's like when we talk about is this relationship healthy, we're we're talking about is it are both partners getting their needs met in a good enough way, right? It's not about again, not about being perfect, but um, and that's that really does ultimately become a very kind of personal question. It's just like, well, in this relationship, are my needs being met in a good enough way? Um, and everybody kind of gets to decide that for themselves.

SPEAKER_00 52:46

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think needs are so important. I mean, we could have a whole episode on like our needs, because I think a lot of the times when I've had couples in sessions, it would be, you know, trying to identify the need in an argument. Because it could be exactly what you pointed out, right? Like the cap wasn't on the toothpaste or the sock is on the floor again, or you know, the dish was left on the counter, not in the like in the sink. And it's all these little things, and we can sometimes go back and be like, oh, such a stupid fight, but really a need wasn't being met, or or a need was, you know, not being um noticed or aware of. And so a lot of the fights that come up or how we can end up communicating these things with our partner, it it is an idea it can help us kind of identify exactly what our need was at that time. And then we have the words to be able to communicate what that need was that was maybe lacking in the moment with our partner, with our friend, with whoever. Um, but yeah, I think yeah, that definitely the needs is a big focus.

SPEAKER_02 53:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I use the the the kind of cap off the toothpaste example on purpose because it's it is actually these things that look small on paper, right? Like like every couple I see says, yeah, the things our biggest fights start over these things that seem that seem small on paper. And that is because there are these underlying needs that that are kind of getting activated.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Jordan. I think this was so informative. We got to learn a lot about being curious with ourselves and identifying our needs and also a little bit on attachment. Um, but yeah, this was so great. Thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_03 54:27

Yeah, thanks for having me on.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

Um, Jordan, you are accepting new clients right now, is that right?

unknown 54:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 54:34

Yep. So, Jordan, as you mentioned at the beginning, Jordan works with couples and individuals. And so um, if you're kind of finding that you're feeling this way, whether you're in a relationship or currently um not in a romantic relationship, then Jordan can definitely be somebody who can support you. We'll have more information on Jordan in our show notes. Um, but yeah, thanks again for being here. And everyone make sure to follow us on Outside the Therapy Room pod on social media, and we will see you next time. Bye. Thank you for listening to Outside the Therapy Room. This podcast is intended for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you reside in Ontario and are interested in working with one of our therapists, please visit our website in the show notes. If you reside outside of Ontario, a quick Google search or search through psychology today will help you find a therapist near you.